3.5 Domains

Post by **fbmf** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 3:44 pm

Were any of the Core 3.5 domains so horribly overpowered or underpowered that they should be removed? What were they, and what made them over/underpowered?

Were any of the non-core domains so well written and balanced that they can and should be allowed in a 3.5 game?

Discuss.

Game On,
fbmf

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:17 pm

There are a lot of Domains that are worthless or deceptive. The Death Domain doesn't do what you'd think it does - it provides Necromancy to Characters who (normally for Alignment reasons) can't cast Animate Dead.

The Family Domain is I think the one from FRCS that for no damn reason allows you to add +Infinity to your AC. That one has got to go. The Spell Compendium version just fades into obscurity as a mediocre defensive domain you probably were not going to use.

The Planar Domains are all shitty, and no better than a random Domain. So paying both Domains for them is insane. The original Madness Domain was out of the box broken as fuck, but the Spell Compendium version nerfed it into suckage the likes of which make no sense.

Frankly, making Domains just isn't that hard, and most 3rd party domains are no better and no worse than the official ones. I mean honestly, the Missionary Domain (Relics and Rituals) and even the Denial Domain (in the Book of Erotic Fantasy) are perfectly serviceable and no better or worse than the Trade or Sloth domains. As long as you pick a Domain that doesn't have retarded expansion spells in it, you're basically good.

-Username17

Post by **fbmf** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:30 pm

In core 3.5, I think the Healing Domain and Alignment domains are useless, but everything else seems okay (at least when I've seen them used in games). Any issues there?

How can the death domain be fixed?

Game On,
fbmf

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:45 pm

fbmf wrote:In core 3.5, I think the Healing Domain and Alignment domains are useless, but everything else seems okay (at least when I've seen them used in games). Any issues there?

How can the death domain be fixed?

Game On,
fbmf

Well, those domains have a purpose. With 3.5's insistence on allowing people to turn Holy Word into Death: No Save spells, and all the Necromancy effects being strongly caster level dependent, you can go far with an Alignment domain. The Healing and Death domains are just strongly counter intuitive. You'd think that a Cleric of Nerull would want the Death Domain to be more Deathy. But it's useless for him. It's for Lawful Good Clerics of Wee Jas, because otherwise they can't cast animate dead. Similarly, the Healing Domain is 1 lousy hit point on healing spells, so no one cares. But it's a good way for folks grabbing prestige domains to put True Res and all the healing crap onto their list. Arcane Disciple for the win.

I'm not sure that needs fixing though. Once you understand the domain well enough to understand that it doesn't do what you think t does and you can consider changing it, you know what it does do and then you no longer need to change it.

-Username17

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:02 pm

A lot of DMs got really upset that I would constantly pick up the Trickery and Travel domains when restricted to core. Those two domains are awesome, especially if you're using some kind of ridiculous dice rolling scheme. Most of the time a domain will either have a good domain power (such as War or Planning) or a good spell list (such as Spell or Time) but rarely both. I wouldn't call them overpowered, though, just spotlight-stealing.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:20 pm

From core domain, really there aren't any that really break the game. I've never used the noncore domains so I really don't know much about those.

Really the closest one is probably the travel domain, since it's almost a must take. It has awesome spells at almost every level and the domain ability is very useful in practical gameplay, given it lets you ignore major spells like web, evard's black tentacles, solid fog and entangle. Best of all it doesn't require an action to use and can't be dispelled. It just turns itself on whenever its needed.

Still it's really far from breaking the game.

shau · Post by **shau** » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:11 pm

I can't think of anything that really breaks the game, but all my fighters and rogues used to take a level in cleric with the magic domain to be able to use all the mage and cleric spell trigger items. Much easier than trying to pump UMD, though not quite as useful.

Orca · Post by **Orca** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:52 am

I've only once seen anyone pick up one of the core elemental domains and he grumbled about how bad it was a lot.

God_of_Awesome · Post by **God_of_Awesome** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:36 am

Oh yeah. Fire Domain disappointed me with its lack of Fireball.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:40 am

No fireball? *checks* Oh, that's bullshit. New rules:

Fire Domain
Granted Power: Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.

Fire Domain Spells

1. Produce Flame: 1d6 damage +1/ level, touch or thrown.
2. Resist Energy*: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
3. Fireball: 1d6 damage per level, 20-ft. radius.
4. Wall of Fire: Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall deals 2d6 damage +1/level.
5. Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
6. Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs.
7. Fire Storm: Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
8. Incendiary Cloud: Cloud deals 4d6 fire damage/round.
9. Elemental Swarm**: Summons multiple elementals.
*Resist cold or fire only.
**Cast as a fire spell only.

There, not nearly as bad.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:03 am

Double post!

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:03 am

Lokathor wrote:No fireball? *checks* Oh, that's bullshit. New rules:

Fire Domain
Granted Power: Turn or destroy water creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster fire creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.

Fire Domain Spells

1. Produce Flame: 1d6 damage +1/ level, touch or thrown.
2. Resist Energy*: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
3. Fireball: 1d6 damage per level, 20-ft. radius.
4. Wall of Fire: Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall deals 2d6 damage +1/level.
5. Fire Shield: Creatures attacking you take fire damage; you’re protected from heat or cold.
6. Fire Seeds: Acorns and berries become grenades and bombs.
7. Fire Storm: Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
8. Incendiary Cloud: Cloud deals 4d6 fire damage/round.
9. Elemental Swarm**: Summons multiple elementals.
*Resist cold or fire only.
**Cast as a fire spell only.

There, not nearly as bad.

Ok, how about we try this again, without the sucktitude?

Fire Domain

Granted power: As per PHB.

1: Fireball
2: Resist Energy*
3: Wall of Fire
4: Funeral Pyre
5: Word of Blinding
6: Prismatic Spray
7: Implosion
8: Symbol of Death
9: Gate**

* Against fire only
** As a [Fire] spell only

Funeral Pyre
Necromancy [Fire]
Level: 4
Class: Druid
Sphere: Fire (domain), Pyre
Components: V, S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Corpse or corporeal undead touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Save: None (Will negates for undead)
SR: Yes

With a touch, the caster causes the corpse or undead creature he touches to ignite, burning it up to nothingness. A corpse so destroyed can only be returned with a true resurrection effect. An undead creature receives a Will save against this effect to avoid destruction in this manner.

Word of Blinding
Illusion [Mind-Affecting]
Level: 5
Class: Sor/Wiz
Sphere: Fire (domain)
Components: V
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Close
Target: One creature
Duration: See text
Save: None
SR: Yes

You cause a single creature become blind, whether it can hear the Word or not. If the creature's CR is 2 points or more below your caster level, the duration is permanent; if its CR is equal to your caster level or 1 point lower, 1d4+1 minutes; if its CR is 1 or 2 points higher than your caster level, 1d4+1 rounds. Creatures whose CR is more than 2 points above your caster level are not affected.

There. Much better.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:21 am

Symbol of Death? Word of Blinding? In what way are those fire associated? I could see the symbol being a "you're incinerated instantly" maybe, but I don't get the Blinding.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:27 am

Lokathor wrote:Symbol of Death? Word of Blinding? In what way are those fire associated? I could see the symbol being a "you're incinerated instantly" maybe, but I don't get the Blinding.

You ever set fire to anyone's eyeballs before? The symbol was exactly what you thought, but the fact that fire (or heck, even heat or light, both of which fire gives off) can destroy vision seems pretty obvious to me.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:18 am

But then shouldn't it be some other version of the spell... that's... you know... not a mind affecting illusion? Or do they just think that they're blinded by fire a word you said?

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:24 am

Lokathor wrote:But then shouldn't it be some other version of the spell... that's... you know... not a mind affecting illusion? Or do they just think that they're blinded by fire a word you said?

Admittedly, there you do have a point. If it bothers you that much, change its type to Evocation [Fire], and everyone can go home happy.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:17 am

Either way, if you wrote the spell yourself, I like the part about being CR based instead of HD based. More spells should be like that.

Or... that HD==CR project should be revived. Either way.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:19 am

There was an HD = CR project?

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:04 pm

Well, more like a minor thread that didn't really get past page 1.
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=1458

The idea is solid, it's just that you have to adjust every monster entry by hand to make it line up, so it's a whole lot of work.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:19 pm

That is a very nice idea. thanks for the link.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 5:42 pm

I like the idea of imbalanced domains. My home setting for v3.5 includes domains the players are never going to choose, but they made sense for me as a GM in fleshing out what the boring NPC priests are doing. So, balance never really struck me as important with domains...

...with the exception of the Spell domain, with Anyspell. The cleric is good enough; if they want to do that Anyspell bullshit then they have to multiclass in Wizard somehow. Fuck 'em. The rest are okay.

I'd also be mindful of Wrath (from Spell Compendium) with its double damage on a charge.

Necromancers need the Undeath domain, not the Death domain.

...

I made a point of putting the awesome and useful domains in with the interesting deities, and the God of Agriculture gets the ability to bless crops.

That way, no one is tricked into picking a crappy domain, since you're either a holy worshipper of the god of Rage, or of the God of Lovers: "just what it says on the tin".

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:10 pm

mean_liar wrote:I like the idea of imbalanced domains.

I don't, because people will then min-max their deity at the cost of their character.

'Gee, Ellistrae fits my character's philosophy better and her church comes with neat background hooks, but Corellon comes with War AND Elf domains!'

koz · Post by **koz** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 6:17 pm

Yeah, I'm with Lago on this one. I don't believe that being forced to go against fluff in order to be effective is a positive thing, and if you have boring NPC priests, their domains should not be ones available to your cool PC clerics.

Arijkos · Post by **Arijkos** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:49 pm

Mister_Sinister wrote:Yeah, I'm with Lago on this one. I don't believe that being forced to go against fluff in order to be effective is a positive thing, and if you have boring NPC priests, their domains should not be ones available to your cool PC clerics.

The problem is, CharOp wouldn't exist if more people would agree with this view. See those weird breeds with feats and options from dozens of supplements? Who cares that your domains don't fit your background/deity if everything else is min/maxed to infinity?

But I totally agree with you and with other posters here, its sad that you have to think really hard about not choosing the travel domain, even if your character would have little to no reason to do that, let alone his deity of choice.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Tue Dec 15, 2009 7:50 pm

I don't see that since I made all the cool deities the ones with the badass domains. A priest of Craftsmen should not expect to be able to lay out the beatings, but they do get Major Creation.

House rules and setting changes work together to create the environment you want, and I think that a player that wants to play a priest of Agriculture rather than say Warfare/Combat/Slaughter/Hunting/Tyranny should reasonably expect to be worse at all the killing that PCs are expected to do. From my perspective you're not arguing against imbalanced domains but imbalanced deities and supporting fluff.

The cool deities get the cool domains, the boring deities get the boring domains. You WANT there to be an Agriculture, and Joy, and Community domains, because you want your setting to make sense. I personally don't like the idea of a super-powerful awesome god of Farming, and so the god gets Agriculture, Community, Plant, Renewal, Trade, and Weather. That's a lot of choices for a deity with a Divine Rank of 6, but enough to actually have one or two tricks available, but they should honestly expect to have lots of neato crop spells and not a lot of "directly applicable in one's adventuring career" spells.

Having a deity with a cool backstory and hooks and lousy domains doesn't have to be a problem with the domains themselves : the problem can be rectified by better deities.